So, for Thanksgiving, I went to [livejournal.com profile] twistedchick's house, brought along apple tarts that I made myself, and some DVDs. We watched Pirates of the Carribbean, which I had never seen, and Batman Begins, which she had never seen, and waited for the turkey to be done.

Before I went home, she gave me herbed vinegar -- because I'm the only one she knows who comes close to cooking with vinegar as much as she does -- and her husband lent me 1632 and 1633 by Eric Flint, which I spent the rest of the night ripping through.

These are set of Alternate History novels, and they are delightfully cracktastic. I credit [livejournal.com profile] temve and [livejournal.com profile] the_little_owl, and their bunnies about fusing Star Wars with that era of history for the fact that I was even interested in stories set during the time period, which I really don't know that much about.

Take one West Virgina coal-mining town, circa 2000, and transport to lower Thuringia during the middle of the Thirty Years War.

Are you seeing the crack yet?

The first novel is a bit heavy-handed, a trifle preachy, and entirely too convinced that the Americans would do the right thing, instead of panicking. On the other hand, it's rather fun to imagine what *would* happen if you pitted pike and wheel-lock mercenaries against a bunch of pissed off Applachians with modern hunting rifles and pump-action shotguns.

The author has good points about most things, and has thought through things well. The time-displaced Americans make it a priority, after securing their safety and working on getting the winter food supply assured, to start gearing down their technology.

They can't keep producing the 21st century tech that gives them the superiority against the armies running amok during the Thirty Years War, but they have the resources to create an early 19th century industrial base, which is STILL enough superiority to keep the locals from slaughtering them.

However, I think the author has missed the importance of water power as an energy source and the importance of textiles to the 17th century economy.

The transported town has a functioning coal-burning electrical plant. Which will work fine, as long as they can keep machining critical parts for it. However, at the time, waterwheels would have been the power-source of note, and they have the tech available to machine water *turbines*, which are much more efficient. They could easily expanded their critical functions -- only three machine shops in the town, which all run on electricity -- if they spent time to build a water-powered machine shop, like the one that is still running at the Eleutherian Mills at the Hagley Museum in Delaware; water power was the original power source for industrialization, after all, and it required no more than a reliable river and a properly mounted waterwheel.

Using water power would allow the characters to expand their industrial base even faster, without overstressing the power plant they need for more vital functions.

Textiles are a bit harder, but they're *incredibly* time-consuming to make by human power alone, and used in just about *every* other industry of note. A spinning jenny is not an impossible goal, especially once you already know it is possible. A carding mill would be harder, since carding cloth has anywhere between 20 to 128 wires per square inch and currently is made on very specialized equipment -- but once you have the carding cloth, the mill itself is similar to an offset printing press in construction. Even automating lace production -- which is an insanely time-consuming task to do by hand -- is not beyond 19th century tech and an engineer clever with gears, and highly profitable. Automating looms is actually fairly simple -- and expands the *width* that cloth can be woven to, which is a lot more significant than it would appear at first glance.

I did like that in the two anthologies there was a story about the first sewing machine manufacturing company where some high-school kids figure out how to manufacture a treadle sewing machine using mostly 17th century technology, and a story about dyeing that ends with the realization that the coal for the power plant can also be used to make *aniline* dyes -- colorfast, vivid, and a path to riches that is mind-boggling if you have never thought about fabric dyes before.

The other part of the series I like really well is that the Americans are determined to disseminate their political and cultural ideas far and wide. Mostly because they want to preserve their culture, but also with the idea that having as many people as possible knowing about such things as civil rights, universal suffrage, sanitation, standardized industrial measurement, modern banking, and religious tolerance, it will make the surrounding society change enough so that *they* will be safe, or at least safer and less likely to be attacked by their neighbors, who will hopefully be too busy working on their own industrial booms to bother with anything else.

And it is rather amusing when Gustavus Adolphus shows up towards the end of 1632, tentatively interested in an alliance with the time-displaced town. Because that's when Eric Flint *really* throws a wrench in history and you have no idea what might happen next.


For anyone who is interested, both books and the first short story anthology Grantsville Gazette vol. 1 are available for free from the Baen Free Library -- the publisher has put several SF/Fantasy books online in free and readable formats, which sure as heck should be encouraged.

From: [identity profile] hlglne.livejournal.com


Thanks for the heads-up... btw are they as bad as Orson Scott Card on alternate USA?

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


God, no where NEAR as preachy.

I made the mistake of reading the last Orson Scott Card alternate history, and almost threw the book across the room when I saw what he did to Lincoln -- who was a brilliant *ambitious* man, and would not have been a riverboatman in any realistic reading of him.

These novels are just slightly preachy, and a bit full of 'America is the bestest!' which is more 'liberal democratic capitalistic societies with no aristocracy and strong unions are the bestest!' (the United Mine Workers of America local winds up playing a large role in the first book, in some rather amusing, wacky and believable scenes); on the other hand, they've got a lot of good stuff about how people in the 17th century weren't *stupid*, they just didn't have the tech. There is a wonderful scene when a 17th century doctor offers to lend his books to the modern doctors, and is appalled that they can't read Arabic, Greek *or* Latin.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Also, Card does not know JACK about Stephen F. Austin, as he savaged the man's character. There's alternate history, and there is OOC WTF?

From: [identity profile] molly-o.livejournal.com


By complete coincidence, I was at Borders on Saturday and spent 15-20 minutes typing different years into the computer trying to find these books. (I couldn't remember the author, and I knew it was a year starting with 16-something, I even knew it had to do with the 30-years war, but I couldn't remember the exact date -- for some reason I was hung up on 1636 -- and the title search option wouldn't allow a 16** wild-card search.)

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Yes, but you can now download free copies of these books.

Glee.

Btw, why were you looking for them? For presents, or for yourself?

From: [identity profile] molly-o.livejournal.com


For myself! I don't read much alternate history, but these sound a bit like post-apocalyptic SF, which I enjoy. Plus I've been reading Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, which starts about 50 years after the Flint books, so they seem like an interesting complement to that.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Oh, good. It'll be fun to talk about them the next time we see each other.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com

let's see what happens when I stir the pot...


I really enjoyed chatting with you about the series, and went so far as to sign onto the Baen's Bar and actually ask in 1632 'how difficult would it be to manufacture lambskins condoms with 1630 tech' (and I mentioned that there really should be a few HIV-positive up-timers wandering about).

Let's see what happens. It might just disappear into the pot, but it might get some interesting responses.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com

Re: let's see what happens when I stir the pot...


Well, someone named Kerryn Offord said that 'there is only one HIV-positive uptimer, and he won't be spreading anything around'.

Frankly, that seems low for a small town (~3,000 people?) of Appalachia in 2000. Especially since there would likely have been a serious drug culture where sex for drugs would have been a not unusual exchange. Not to mention people on meth aren't noted for their good decision making.

But at least people are replying, if only to say 'nothing sinks a story faster than the abortion debate'... which was not what I was asking about, I was specifically asking about 1630s tech for manufacturing birth control, and suggesting that lambskin condoms were unfortunately the best option, especially for female characters who were not really interested in pregnancy at the moment.

From: [identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com


!!!!! Well, there goes any spare time that I might have. :D

And ahah. It says something about my internal dork that aniline dyes! was the first thing that popped into my head when you started talking about coal and the displacement, and yeah. Too much James Burke for me.

Thanks so much for the links.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Considering that aniline dyes were the foundation of modern chemical industry -- and the reason Germany dominated the industry for decades -- if that story hadn't popped up in the anthology, I was going to drop Eric Flint a rather long and boring letter. I think I still might, as the official fan site (http://www.1632.org/) seems convinced that the spinning jenny isn't feasible for the time-displaced people to some up with. I think it is, and would be vital -- especially when the Americans want to start building timberclad and ironclad warships for Gustavus Adolphus.

On the other hand, linen would have been a primary textile then, and it's NOT that easy to automate the spinning of that, compared to cotton or wool.

Heh, if you can get aniline dyes, you can get gaslight *and* sulfa drugs (they were derived from aniline dyes, of the crazy things!). And eventually, rayon and nylon -- and nylon truly was a wonder fiber.

From: [identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com


You know, it's vastly intruiging that the prologue to the story is set in the present and that we get such a vivid notion of the displacement. Do the books talk about downstream ripple effects at all?

And yeah. I grew up in Delaware back when DuPont was still talking about itself as the inventor of nylon, so THE GLORIES OF COAL!!! and BETTER LIVING THROUGH SCIENCE!! are pretty familiar to me. I hadn't realized about the sulfa drugs, though.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


The ripple effects for the people left behind in 2000? No, the books are completely focused on the poor schmucks stuck in the 1630s.

Oh, aniline dyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniline_dye) are so cool. I did not realize that they were a precursor chemical in polyurethane -- that could be really, *really* useful for characters, eventually.

Did you ever get to the Hagley Museum? The powder mills are pretty damned nifty, and really part of the reason I think the author should bring up water power. The machine shop at the museum is a fully-functioning machine shop, run off a water turbine; that's exactly what you'd need to expand your industrial base.

From: [identity profile] quigonejinn.livejournal.com

crack crack crack!


You can't go to school in Delaware without going to Hagley, man. You're gonna get dragged there at least five times before your thirteenth birthday, and even if you can't get it there, you can't go on a daytrip anywhere in the Brandywine River Valley without tripping over a restored mill. :>

I wonder if the rivers or whatever in the displaced area were the right kind for mills. I know you can scrape by with marginal streams, but for Hagley-style production, you're going to need those broad, steady flows.

Man, I know nothing about the Thirty Years War. I need to remedy that. You should also point me to the locations if those Jedi-in-the-Thirty-Years-Wars bunnies have taken up and started breeding anywhere I might be able to see them.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com

Re: crack crack crack!


I loved the Eleutherian Mills when I went. I would have played with the mechanisms all day if allowed.

Rivers that aren't broad steady flows can be diverted into millraces. It's a lot of work, but since the were building canals at the time, they can certainly build damns and millraces.

Man, I know nothing about the Thirty Years War.

I didn't either, but Wikipedia is an okay place to start; there's an overview of the Thirty Years War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) and a synopsis of the 1632 series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1632_series).

It's all [livejournal.com profile] temve's fault, what with her Swedish Maruader mod (http://www.livejournal.com/users/temve/291860.html) of a Qui-Gon doll, and [livejournal.com profile] the_little_owl for running with (http://www.livejournal.com/users/the_little_owl/11620.html) it like (http://www.livejournal.com/users/the_little_owl/11980.html) a mad thing. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/the_little_owl/12349.html)
florahart: (Default)

From: [personal profile] florahart


Worth noting that Flint was the guy who convinced Baen to do this. He figured some folks might do this for free instead of go to the library because they weren't going to purchase anyway, and others might be more apt to purchase, having been given a chunk of the text to try on for size. And he was totally right. Baen's been putting up all of some novels and part of recent/upcoming ones for YEARS and it hasn't done anything but help.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Baen's been putting up all of some novels and part of recent/upcoming ones for YEARS and it hasn't done anything but help.

Well, it certainly worked on *me*, as I bought the "Ring of Fire" anthology and the novel about Gallileo. I'm hoping that the novel about the Baltic War gets publised soon, because there is so much that could be done there...

From: [identity profile] leni-jess.livejournal.com


Yes, it's an interesting series, and becoming more so as other authors start working with Flint (who is a quintessential joint-author person). Their tech discussion at Baen's Bar that you referred to must also be a tremendous resource for them - they couldn't do all that devoted research and calculation themselves (just as Niven would never have written the last couple at least of Ringworld novels without all the nuts out there who did the research and calculation on all sorts of Ringworld thingies, and sent them to him, out of pure love, and he's duly appreciative).

Why don't you drop the 1632 Tech Manual conference on the Baen website those thoughts on water power, in particular?

I love the free library that Flint orgnaised for Baen. I can experiment with new authors, pick up texts of books I've somehow missed when they came out, and rush out to my SF suppliers to order upcoming ones I'd never have known about - goodies all round. And it's not just books. Have you read those articles there by Janis Ian about how she sells far more CDs since she began giving stuff away on the net?

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com



Why don't you drop the 1632 Tech Manual conference on the Baen website those thoughts on water power, in particular?


I might. I really wondering how much textile knowledge there is. I mean, yes Mercedes Lackey wrote the dye-stuff story, but textiles *were* the industry behind automation, at least at the start, and it just doesn't seem like that's understood, based on the stories in the anthologies and the novels...
.

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