English is a weird language. There are feminine words for some occupations, though they're so archaic that they are mainly used for surnames now.

The ones I can come up with easily are:

webster -- weaver
baxter -- baker
brewster -- brewer
spinster -- spinner

Are there others?

ETA: I was thinking about words with the -ster construction, though words with the -ess construction are equally valid.

From: [identity profile] clara-swift.livejournal.com


Ooh, I didn't know the origins of those names. Fascinating.

From: [identity profile] mofic.livejournal.com


"Actress" and "seamstress" are still often used.

"Laundress" used to be a term for a woman who worked in a laundry.

Flight attendants used to be all women and were called "stewardesses" (There were stewards on ships).

Women who were doctors were called "lady doctors" well into the 1960s.

Some people say "Congresswoman" although I think "member of Congress" for both sexes is preferable.


From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


You are right, though I was thinking more about words that have the -ster construction.

From: [identity profile] clara-swift.livejournal.com


I wonder how spinster came to be the word for an old, unmarried lady.

Ah, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster) just explained!!!

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Industrialization lead to some strange language shifts, didn't it?

From: [identity profile] mofic.livejournal.com


Oh, well then I do think you're right that there aren't any that are used that way now. Really, of the ones you mentioned, only "spinster" is used at all in modern parlance, and it's not used for that meaning.

"Seamstress" is not a new word, but it's the newer form of "seamster". Once "ster" ceased to be the ending for "woman who", and "ess" became more common for female jobs, it morphed.

I actually think in current parlance "ster" has a masculine connotation because of the ending of "mister". Kids use that ending to mean "expert at" sometimes, but without the female connotation at all.

From: [identity profile] the-little-owl.livejournal.com


I would like to know if there's a difference between what you expect a seamtress to do in comparison to a tailor. Is a seamstress expected to sew, while a tailor does also design of chlothes or do these words have simply another origin and that's all?
I ask this question, because I'll have a seamstress in one of my stories, but she's more the boss of a wardrobe, where people are sitting and sewing too.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


For me, a seamstress deals mostly with women's clothes, can do alterations, and may also be a dressmaker (a slightly higher status term involving original design of dresses for customers). A tailor would also be able to do alterations, but deals mostly with men's clothes.

"Tailored" usually implies closely fitted jackets and shirts typical of men's clothes, or women's clothes in a male style like suits and blazers.

Your character might be titled "Wardrobe Mistress" or "Head Dressmaker", depending on whether the clothes are primarily men's clothes, or women's clothes. I'd have to research to find out for different historical periods, but a woman in charge of a clothing workroom wouldn't simply be a seamstress.

From: [identity profile] tricksterquinn.livejournal.com


Authoress, which irks me, but I suspect you weren't so much asking about the "-ess" ending?

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Ugh, that is an awful construction.

On the other hand, I sort of like "adventuress" -- must be my fondness for Sherlock Holmes stories.

From: [identity profile] tricksterquinn.livejournal.com


I rather dig 'adventuress' myself, but that may just be my general enjoyment of women historically having too much fun to be socially acceptable.

From: [identity profile] gehayi.livejournal.com


Well, the problem with "adventuress (http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/adventuress)" is that it carries bad connotations. Or maybe I've just read too many stories and bios set in the 19th century in which wild and disreputable women became romantically and/or sexually involved with rich and very reputable men, to the shock and horror of society.

"Poetess (http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/poetess)" is another word (like "authoress") that I'd like to get rid of. Neither one is flattering toward the woman or her talent.

From: [identity profile] tricksterquinn.livejournal.com


I wouldn't say "bad" - those are the very connotations that are why I'm rather fond of the word. Shocking and horrifying society - especially in the nineteenth century - is something I can get behind, really.

Women experiencing life in it's highest highs and lowest lows, by doing things that would be perfectly permissible were they men - but are of course scandalous because they are of the fairer sex.

From: [identity profile] gehayi.livejournal.com


It's not the shocking and horrifying society that I mind. It's the implication--again, one that I've read far too often--that an adventuress is no more or less than a gold digger.
dorothy1901: OTW hugo (Default)

From: [personal profile] dorothy1901

Adventurer vs. adventuress


A bit of dialogue from The Palm Beach Story (1942, Claudette Colbert, Joel McCrea, dir. Preston Sturges):


Gerry: I may not even get married again. I might become an adventuress.

Tom: I can just see you starting for China on a twenty-six foot sail boat.

Gerry: You're thinking of an adventurer, dear. An adventuress never goes on anything under three hundred feet with a crew of eighty.

twistedchick: watercolor painting of coffee cup on wood table (Default)

From: [personal profile] twistedchick


Sort of (but not really) like baxter is aviatrix, which was what Amelia Earhart was called.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Right. Lots of ways to get feminine words. -ster is Old English (Anglo-Saxon?), -trix is Latin.

I can make *lots* of words using Latin, some of them quite filthy. ;)

From: [identity profile] ellen-fremedon.livejournal.com


-ster is still a productive affix, though it's non-gendered now: trickster, hipster, mobster, prankster.

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Right. So, do you remember more words from when it was purely feminine? Because I've only got four, and that seems kind of scant for English.

From: [identity profile] clara-swift.livejournal.com


I found this:

Found this...

Lesson 150.

Ist, ster, ee, and ess, generally signify the person who, or thing which.
The last is an affix denoting the feminine gender.

aur'ist phys'i cist pi a'nist
tap'ster chor'is ter for'est er
grant ee' mort ga gee' as sign ee'
em'press shep'herd ess mar'chion ess

Dom signifies the office of or state of being; hood, the state of being;
ish, somewhat, like; and ism, the condition or doctrines of.

king'dom chris'ten dom hea'then dom
child'hood maid'en hood live'li hood
knav'ish yel'low ish a'gu ish
Bud'dhism Meth'od ism Mor'mon ism

But that suggests -ess as the common feminine form. The -ster words they give are neutral. See, you've got me interested now and trying to find more!

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


I *think* it's a matter of age of the word whether it is -ster or -ess, but [livejournal.com profile] ellen_fremedon would know for certain.

I think "forester" is cheating, since it is from "forest". What makes it -ster and not simply -er according to the lesson?

From: [identity profile] fuchsoid.livejournal.com


It's interesting that "webster", "baxter" and "brewster" are all fairly common surnames, like their male equivalents. Does this imply that some families were named after the trades of female ancestors, rather than those of males, as is commonly supposed?. And why are neither "spinster" nor "spinner" seen as surnames?

The only other trade name I can think of ending in "ster" is "maltster", but I think that can apply to either sex. Although come to think of it, what about "monster"?

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


Malster? I've never heard of that one before; someone who makes malt -- for brewing, one supposes?

I remember being told that the words brewster, baxter and webster became surnames had to do with the wake of the Black Death, but I have no idea if that's true or not.

Monster is from monstrum, which is most definitely Latin and not Old English.

From: [identity profile] fuchsoid.livejournal.com


Sorry, that should have been "maltster", and yes, I think it is someone who prepares malt for brewing.

To further muddy the waters, there's a small town in northern Scotland (I think) called Scrabster, but I've no idea where the name comes from. Probably another coincidence, like "monster".

From: [identity profile] mmoa.livejournal.com


Pehrpas it was the children of unknown fatherhood who were given their mother's 'name' so to speak. Or maybe it was the women who kept the trade going through each generation in certain families. Still very interesting though.

From: [identity profile] demeter918.livejournal.com


I laughed when I saw 'spinster', cause now that has a whole other meaning. =) Though I guess even that's archaic now...

From: [identity profile] leni-jess.livejournal.com


In Twelfth Night (Act 2, Scene IV) Master Shaksberd referred to

The spinsters and the knitters in the sun
And the free maids that weave their thread with bones
Do use to chant it: it is silly sooth,
And dallies with the innocence of love,
Like the old age.

(That's 'Come away, come away, death'.)

Took me until late adolescence to realise a 'spinster' spun things, with no reflection on marital status. Or sex. Though from what Orsino says about the song, it sounds as if he's referring to women exclusively.

I wonder what makes a 'knitter' different from someone who 'weave[s her] thread with bones'? That sounds like the knitting you do. (So of course I got curious, and before I ran out of steam found http://sca.livingpast.com/knit.html, which You probably know already.)

From: [identity profile] neotoma.livejournal.com


weave their thread with bones

Bone could be made into any number of weaving tools. But I think it refers to cardweaving (http://neotoma.livejournal.com/60167.html), as the cards were often made of bone.

From: [identity profile] leni-jess.livejournal.com


Thank you for explaining; that's most helpful. (Also, the minute I started to read your response in email I thought, 'crochet'! So I haven't yet looked into whether that might be historically likely.)
.

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