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The Jedi in the Old Republic are an active force of peacekeepers and troubleshooters. They are similar in function to the Texas Rangers of history -- they come to hot spots, help put down the riot, and move on.
It's just *how* they do that that gives me shivers.
The Jedi Mind Trick (patent pending) we first saw in the original movie, where Ben Kenobi uses it to get by an enemy checkpoint. That's a perfectly ethical use of the talent, in a situation of war and espionage. So is Luke's use of it in RotJ, when he's going into Jabba's compound. Both situations are where the Jedi are dealing with people out to hurt them -- enemies, in other words -- and need all the leverage they can get.
It's just later, in the prequels, where I begin to wonder.
In TPM, when Qui-Gon attempts to use it on Watto, he's in a pretty desperate situation -- stranded on gangster territory, with enemies tracking him and his shipmates. He *must* get the parts to repair the ship, but his Republican dactaries aren't worthwhile currency out on the Rim. However, if he'd succeed in mind-tricking Watto into accepting worthless money, how would that have differed from theft? Watto wasn't trying to hurt Qui-Gon, he just wanted to be paid in useful currency for what he was selling.
That he might have tried to trick Qui-Gon later when they were discussing the bet and freeing Anakin and Shmi doesn't really matter, as we know Watto isn't a nice being. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, is supposed to be a good person, as he's a Jedi Knight and thus a defender of order and bringer of justice. Should he really be stealing property and rigging dice games?
When Obi-Wan uses the mind trick on the man selling deathsticks in AotC, it is funny on the surface, and rather disturbing underneath. Is Obi-Wan allowed to mind-whammy anyone who he finds conducting shady business? Who decides what is unpleasant but acceptable work, and what deserves mental tampering? The man is selling dubious merchandise to say the least, but he is a Coruscant resident, and thus someone whom Obi-Wan is supposed to protect, at least in theory.
I don't know that I'd trust the judgement of the Jedi, no matter how stellar they are supposed to be.
It's just *how* they do that that gives me shivers.
The Jedi Mind Trick (patent pending) we first saw in the original movie, where Ben Kenobi uses it to get by an enemy checkpoint. That's a perfectly ethical use of the talent, in a situation of war and espionage. So is Luke's use of it in RotJ, when he's going into Jabba's compound. Both situations are where the Jedi are dealing with people out to hurt them -- enemies, in other words -- and need all the leverage they can get.
It's just later, in the prequels, where I begin to wonder.
In TPM, when Qui-Gon attempts to use it on Watto, he's in a pretty desperate situation -- stranded on gangster territory, with enemies tracking him and his shipmates. He *must* get the parts to repair the ship, but his Republican dactaries aren't worthwhile currency out on the Rim. However, if he'd succeed in mind-tricking Watto into accepting worthless money, how would that have differed from theft? Watto wasn't trying to hurt Qui-Gon, he just wanted to be paid in useful currency for what he was selling.
That he might have tried to trick Qui-Gon later when they were discussing the bet and freeing Anakin and Shmi doesn't really matter, as we know Watto isn't a nice being. Qui-Gon, on the other hand, is supposed to be a good person, as he's a Jedi Knight and thus a defender of order and bringer of justice. Should he really be stealing property and rigging dice games?
When Obi-Wan uses the mind trick on the man selling deathsticks in AotC, it is funny on the surface, and rather disturbing underneath. Is Obi-Wan allowed to mind-whammy anyone who he finds conducting shady business? Who decides what is unpleasant but acceptable work, and what deserves mental tampering? The man is selling dubious merchandise to say the least, but he is a Coruscant resident, and thus someone whom Obi-Wan is supposed to protect, at least in theory.
I don't know that I'd trust the judgement of the Jedi, no matter how stellar they are supposed to be.
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And I can not for the life of me find a consistancy to their ethics, except maybe "get the job done". That's a bit thin for a millenia old tradition, don't you think?
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But I absolutely concur on the deathstick business.
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He could certainly be compassionate, but he could also be quite short and uncharitable towards people.
The deathstick business is part of what makes me think that while Obi-Wan knows justice, he does not know *mercy*.
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It's creepy, but Anakin is the only one I can recall doing something during the prequels who knows and admits he did the wrong thing. *Anakin*!
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"Do or do not, there is no try." But yes, he meant in a very flexible way. LOL
BTW, I LOVE, ADORE, and WORSHIP that icon.
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Not to mention that the entire STATEMENT is an absolute. Way to be self-contradictory there, Obi-Wan, or were you claiming to be a Sith?
And yes, the Old Republic Jedi remind me a lot of Albus with the "end justifies the means" philosophy. Kind of makes me want to thwap some of them over the head with their own lightsabers.
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Albus, well, I'm not sure if he does good, except by comparison to Lord Voldemort.
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What really made me feel for Anakin was how he realized he'd done the wrong thing in regards to Dooku, and when Mace was trying to do the same thing to Palpatine, tried to talk the man out of it.
Anakin was messed up as heck, but he really DID want to do right. The fact that he couldn't because there really was no right way to turn at that moment -- Windu wasn't backing down, and yet Palpatine took tremendous advantage of Anakin's loyalty -- is just heartbreaking. Up until the moment he defends Palpatine from Windu by attacking, Anakin could have not Turned.
Once Master Windu is dead, Anakin can't see any way back. The Jedi *don't* believe that one can Turn from the Dark Side, and thus Anakin believes he's irrevocably doomed. Once he's got THAT idea in his head, he's got nothing to lose (but Padme) in his quest to protect his family and bring order -- and a man with nothing to lose has everything to gain, and will do anything to get that.
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Oh, God, yes. The poor man. He so desperately needed someone to believe that he'd tripped but could get back up again, and the Jedi thought that once you'd fallen, you were down for aye and for all.
It strikes me that Peter Pettigrew has a similar problem. The wizards of the Potterverse believe that once a wizard turns Dark, nothing and no one matters to them any more. I can see a young wizard (and he would have been young, according to the series' timeline--no more than twenty) being turned through torture or deception or both...and suddenly having no one he could turn to for help. (I don't think that Snape had changed sides in 1980, so Peter couldn't have had that precedent to rely on.)
Voldemort says it himself: "Your loyalty is mere cowardice. You would not be here if you had anywhere else to go."
Which indicates to me that if Peter did have somewhere else to go--if he could return to the light--he probably would. His fear and the wizarding world's belief that once you turn evil, you stay evil are his biggest obstacles. (And doesn't that belief of the wizarding world contradict Dumbledore's statement that "our choices determine who we are"? Choices. Plural. Not one permanent irrevocable choice. People continue to choose throughout their lives. They can change their minds.)
I genuinely hope that somewhere along the line, Peter will get redeemed. No, he doesn't deserve it. He's a traitor and a murderer, and he's done some horrible things. But Anakin didn't deserve redemption, either. He needed redemption, and that's a different thing altogether. I think Peter needs it as well.
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He finally gets Luke, who loves unconditionally and forgives without reason, and thus is a better man than almost anyone in the series.
The wizards of the Potterverse believe that once a wizard turns Dark, nothing and no one matters to them any more.
The Potterverse is disturbing. The Wizarding World is deeply unscrupulous and hypocritical, and you know that a person who decries 'Dark' magic feels no compunction about messing with his Muggle neighbors, as long as they can get away with it.
At least the Jedi tended to be as hard on themselves as they were on everyone else.
He needed redemption, and that's a different thing altogether. I think Peter needs it as well.
What's the line from Buffy? Something about 'forgiveness is never deserved. It's given, or it's not.'
Forgiveness is grace, and both Anakin and Peter need it. I don't know if Peter will get it though.
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Luke is wonderfully unreasonable. He has no cause for thinking that his father has some good still in him, but, in the face of all logic, he believes it. And he stands by it, knowing that Vader has been the servant of the Emperor for years, knowing that Vader and he have no history at all, knowing that the Emperor could kill him before Vader acts. He is everything that the Old Republic Jedi were not: spectacularly, illogically compassionate. And, as you said, the best man in the series, because he forgives and doesn't judge. I love Luke for that.
I just found a lovely quote about love by Lisa Hoffman: "Love is like pi--natural, irrational and very important." That sounds like Luke.
The Potterverse strikes me as "a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there." I don't like their government (in which there's no legislature, and the Minister of Magic and the members of the Wizengamot all seem to be appointed). I don't like a system that allows people to be thrown in prison for life without a trial. Most of all, I don't like the wizarding world's attitude toward Muggles--that they're somehow inferior or less intelligent because they don't know about magic. Even those who supposedly like Muggles make comments about how really remarkable it is that Muggles have invented this or discovered that, and it's so ingenious of them to be able to exist without magic. It all sounds like a not-so-subtle putdown, even when spoken by "Muggle-lovers" such as Arthur Weasley. It's as if the speakers need to assure themselves that these clever, inventive, ingenious Muggles really are inferior, despite the fact that most magical inventions seem to be Muggle inventions that have been enchanted. This doesn't say much for the inventiveness of wizards. Basically, the wizarding world seems rather static. It does not change. It does not like change.
At least the Jedi tended to be as hard on themselves as they were on everyone else.
True. They weren't merciful, but they were scrupulously fair. The wizarding world isn't even that.
I don't know if Peter will get the grace and forgiveness he needs or not. I just hope he does.
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This is a pretty cool icon. I found it here (http://www.livejournal.com/community/episode3_icons/114554.html), along with a similar one for Sith.
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Of course, now my brain is off AUing with Albus as a Jedi.
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As long as Albus gets killed during Order 66, write away. I just want the man DEAD.
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Fair is eye for an eye. Compassionate is refusing eye for an eye.
I would say that the Jedi are fair and just, not compassionate or merciful.
And Albus would so get sideswiped by Order 66; he's not as clever as he thinks he is.
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Order 66
Order 66 is the Order that Palpatine gives the Clone Trooper, who have apparently been programmed with a set of pre-existing orders.
Order 66 is "Kill All Jedi". The CloneTroopers kill every Jedi in the field, usually by shooting them from behind, except Yoda who is on Kashyyk helping the Wookies repel the Separatist forces, and Obi-Wan on Utapau who is shot at, falls into a lake, and is assumed dead by the clones.
Yoda, who has feels pain as various other Jedi are cut down, beheads the two CloneTroopers who try to come after him, and then escapes with the help of two Wookie commanders, Tarfull and Chewbacca.
As Order 66 is being carried out by the CloneTroopers offworld, Anakin -- in his first act as a Sith -- has lead a contingent of CloneTroopers into the Temple on Coruscant, and begun slaughtering Jedi.
Basically, Order 66 is the massacre of the Jedi. Only Obi-Wan and Yoda are known to have survived.
Since you can't go see the movie, you might want to read the script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html); there are several scenes that didn't make the theatrical release, mostly with Padme in them, but it's a pretty good overview of what happened.
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I really want to see this fic now with Albus being killed by clones.
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Not that Obi-Wan is much more compassionate then, though, but he's tempered some. Twenty years alone (except for the spirt of a dead friend) will do that to a person.
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Because *Luke's* ethics are miles beyond anything the Old Republic Jedi showed. He was far more compassionate and merciful, and I think he will be much more inclusive when he starts teaching his own students.
::No, I don't think the EU is canon. Any shared universe in whcih Leia names her son Anakin instead of *Bail* was written by an idiot.::
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Hmm, the Star Wars gaming books describe death sticks as truly being just that - they slowly kill you while you get high. So the dealer was actually a slow murderer. With that background info Obi-Wan was actually being pretty gentle with him.
Qui-Gon rigging the dice game is another situation where if I were a judge, I'd probably give it to Qui-Gon - with the stipulation that Watto got reimbursed later. Also its no fault of Qui-Gon that Watto bet the farm on Anakin *losing* the race - and probably getting killed, to boot. That's wicked.
I'm not sure how long the mind-whammy lasts, any data on that? I think according to the gaming books it only lasts for so long, then its influence fades away. So I don't think you could permenantly mind-blast someone into a new lifestyle. Unless there's some heavier version the Jedi Council can do?
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But just about any hard drug does that. Unless the death risk is astronomically high, I don't see the difference between dealing in meth, crack, or deathsticks.
Actually, Qui-Gon rigging the game doesn't bother me too much, because I'm fairly sure Watto had a loaded die. Nor does Qui-Gon betting on Anakin, because he *did* risk his ship for the money -- and Watto chose to bet against Anakin, with no prompting from Qui-Gon. It was just his initial attempt to cheat before trying any honest alternative that bugged me.
I don't know how long a mind whammy lasts, but the consequences of succumbing almost certainly *do* last beyond the whammy itself. If a Jedi mind tricks you into accepting useless currency for your merchandise, you've still lost money when you come out of it. If a Jedi mind tricks you into confessing crimes, you're still in police custody when you come out of it.