For fans of the Dresden Files...help?

[neotoma]

I've been reading CHANGES to get myself up to canon before tackling a cross-over big bang idea that's been rattling around in my head lately, but I got to Ch. 37 and hit a bit of a wall...

Vamps and Icks are fast, but I'd dueled their like before. Like the apocryphal Loki, my previous opponents had learned that no matter how quick you are on your feet, you aren't faster than thought.

Am I to believe that Loki doesn't exist in the Dresden'verse? Even though Harry crosses paths with a Valkyrie every other book and met Odin in this one? What? Loki's only the most mentioned character in the Eddas -- it's not like he's not integral to rather large parts of the mythology.

Or am I to think that Harry doesn't believe Loki is real... even though Harry has just had a conference with Odin -- who is stocking up weaponry and soldiers for something... like, I don't know, Ragnarok, maybe? And how does Harry know the story of Thor and Loki's journey to Utgard well enough to reference it, but poorly enough that he mixed up who did what challenge (Thjali, Thor's manservant, lost a race against a thought from their host's mind. Loki lost an eating contest against a disguised wildfire)?

Or is Jim Butcher just messing with his readers?

So, I noticed that Harry recognized some of the einherjar as men of Marcone's who were killed taking on the White Court, when Gard took Harry to Oslo. Am I the only one who thinks Gard assignment to work for Marcone's organization is in order to ensure that a certain percentage of his men die in battle (and thus are eligible to go to Valhalla and be soldiers for Odin at Ragnarok)?

I'm pretty sure that Harry hasn't realized it, and would be appalled if that's the case. Marcone probably has, and decided having Ms. Gard's services was worth the likely cost to him in men.

Comments

[melannen]

My answer to that was in the meaning of the word "apocryphal" - in common English usage these days, yeah, it's often used to mean "not true", but if you go back to older/literal meanings (which someone with Dresden's reading history probably has) it means a) hidden teachings or b) the stuff the authority figures reject but that some people think is true anyway.

So I think I just automatically parsed that as Harry saying "the White Council et. al. claim Loki never existed but we all know better than to naively trust that, don't we?"

Alternatively, a) Harry being naive and wrong, or b) Butcher screwing with his readers, which is usually both at once.

The story he's referencing there is pretty widely retold with Loki losing all the contests (or Thor losing all the contests), and not just in recent stuff, isn't it? Who knows what source Harry's working from, but at this point it's probably more than we've got. (Or just Bob.)


...I had kind of assumed Gard was there so that Odin could make sure and get Marcone when he inevitably fell, and his men becoming Einherjar was just a sweetener on the deal. Your version is darker and therefore more interesting, though.

[neotoma]

Butcher doesn't have Harry use that much precision in his thoughts and speech, unless he's has Harry explaining the technical jargon, and then usually making a joke of it. So I'm reading the use of 'apocryphal' to mean 'not true'.

I can believe Butcher is messing with us by having Harry being naive and wrong -- Harry's probably using Marvel's The Mighty Thor as a reference, because comic books are popular media he can use without things going 'boom' due to his magic.

i'm not sure that Marcone is eligible to be an einherji... it depends on whether he dies in battle, whether he's even got the option of a Norse afterlife (vs a Christian one?), and whether his criminal activities violate enough Norse moral lines that he'd be sucked right to Niflheim.

[melannen]

Well, as someone who has read way too many books on folklore/mythology/magic/mysticism/assorted other weird stuff, the "hidden lore" meaning actually comes to me first, and I guess I can see Harry and/or Butcher having the same associations (I'm pretty much certain Butcher's read many of the same books I have, I don't know where else he'd've gotten some of his more singular bits of lore). It's not a matter of precision, just which usage you've seen more often. *shrug* I can't read the word "glamor" to mean anything other than faerie illusions anymore, either.

And if Marcone's men are eligible, it seems like he would be, too, at least within the Dresden Files cosmology; as long as he doesn't die a straw death, but I honestly don't see that as likely for him, and that's one thing Gard could actively work to prevent. The only thing would be that it's a lot more likely that other supernatural powers might try to lay a stronger claim for him first. Which is a good reason to have a Valkyrie following him around...

[greenygal]

Am I to believe that Loki doesn't exist in the Dresden'verse?

My best explanation for this would be that Harry means "there's this story about Loki and Thor, but who knows if it's true or not? A lot of stories aren't, and it's not like I was there" as opposed to taking a personal stand on the nonexistence of Loki. Alternately, he's just used to thinking of the Norse gods as either not-real or, again, in the hazy area of "well, who knows?" and his casual thought processes haven't caught up to the fact that he just got definitive proof. I agree that it's a slightly clunky way to do it, but I can't believe that Jim Butcher would deliberately include Odin in a book and establish that Loki doesn't exist without actually stopping to explain how that works. Sloppy wording is far more believable.

As for how Harry got it wrong, that's easy: he read the story once, but it was a while ago, so he doesn't remember all the details and got wrong which challenge was Loki's.

I'm not entirely sure about Marcone, actually; on the ethical level, he seems like the kind of crimelord who might object to employees who served him in good faith being killed by another employee, and on the pragmatic level, Gard's going to want the best and the strongest to take, which does Marcone no good. On the other hand, it is kind of hard to believe that Gard's doing it and Marcone just hasn't noticed.

[neotoma]

and his casual thought processes haven't caught up to the fact that he just got definitive proof. I

Harry did have a lot to worry about and no brains to spare on the thought that he'd actually met Odin, and therefore all the stories about Ragnarok may one day come true, that's for sure.

Marcone is a puzzler, that's for sure. He may not realize that Gard is ensuring that some of his men become einharjar, since imo magic is still something Marcone doesn't have a perfect handle on even with his power and status as a Freeholder. Especially because the gods are going to be operating on slightly alien moral systems.

[gehayi]

First, Harry didn't necessarily get it wrong; I've read a lot of versions of that tale, and sometimes it features Thor, Loki and Loki's servant, while other times the servant is left out of it. If the servant is left out, Loki generally runs the race AND loses the eating contest. It could just be that Harry's more familiar with a servant-less version.

Also, I think that Harry is distinguishing between the real Loki and the stories that people tell about Loki. If Loki is a real being--and since Odin, Valkyries and the einherjar are real, it's probable that he is--the last thing Harry would want is to picture a possible future foe about whom all the stories were true. It's probably easier for him to think, "Okay, Loki is good, but he's not THAT good."

Personally, I suspect that Harry is one of Loki's favorite mortals. The man is a walking catalyst; he upsets everything. He just hasn't realized it yet.

(Please note that I say "mortal" and not "human"; half-demon Jared Kincaid mentioned a few books back that "I'm as human as you are, Dresden." Now, Harry's maternal bloodline is well-documented...but ever since then, I've been wondering about Harry's supposedly orphaned and supposedly perfectly ordinary father.)

[neotoma]

It's probably easier for him to think, "Okay, Loki is good, but he's not THAT good."

LOL. Poor Harry. Loki is that good ... of course, looking Harry's accomplishments, Harry is also that good.

Hmm... I hadn't realized that Kincaid had said that. Of course, Kincaid is possibly more likely to be able to lie directly like a human, instead of having to omit and misdirect like a fairy....

[gehayi]

Also, Harry has already mentioned in canon that multiple gods exist. The problem is that, being Harry, he's gotten part of it wrong:

"...there are beings who aren't the Almighty who have power way beyond anything running around on the planet...Old Greek and Roman and Norse deities. Lots and lots of Amerind divinities, and African tribal beings. A few Australian aboriginal gods; others in Polynesia, Southeast Asia. About a zillion Hindu gods. But they've all been dormant for centuries."

The problem with this is that gods and godlike powers, in canon, are NOT dormant. The Norse pantheon has formed a security corporation based on magic. Harry has called on various loa and demons in the series. Sanya--who has to be the most devoted atheist on the planet--got his sword from an archangel. Other archangels provide guardianship for the Knights and their families. Michael gets messages directly from, as Harry puts it, "the Head Office." Harry also states canonically that faerie queens, minor gods, demon lords, archangels and mortal necromancers are roughly equal in power.

(Yes. Mortal necromancers are THE EQUIVALENT OF MINOR GODS. That one gives you some idea of why the Council was terrified of Kemmler and his disciples in the books--and why the Council had damned good reason to be scared of Hrothbert of Bainbridge-Bob in the TV series. And, as you'll see in Ghost Story, the ghosts of necromancers are even MORE powerful than living ones. It's mind-boggling.)

So gods and beings with godlike power are not apocryphal in Harry's world; they're demonstrably real. And they sure aren't dormant. It's more like in Neil Gaiman's American Gods--old gods do new jobs.

I have no idea why Harry doesn't think about what he's saying for two seconds.

I really, really do think that he's one of Loki's favorites, though. Loki would love a trouble magnet like Harry.

[neotoma]

Sanya apparently gets his orders from Gabriel -- in a way that sounds like they meet at a cafe and go over his schedule for the week...

Hmmm... archangels are the equivalent of mortal necromancers? That's... worrying. I need to get a copy of GHOST STORY, but it's a long trek to get to a bookstore now that Borders is closed down.

I have no idea why Harry doesn't think about what he's saying for two seconds.

Frankly, I think Harry is more of a feeler than a thinker -- he can think things through, but he's more comfortable reacting on his emotions.

Loki would find Harry hilarious.

[gehayi]

And archangels are insanely powerful in canon. Which goes to show that Butcher didn't downgrade them in the least. It's just that the necromancers took something like a hundred levels in badass, to quote TV tropes.

I need to get a copy of GHOST STORY, but it's a long trek to get to a bookstore now that Borders is closed down.

Maybe you could order it from B & N or Powell Books?

Loki would find Harry hilarious.

He WOULD. He so would.

[neotoma]

I could just wait until Wednesday and see if I could get it from the local library... or borrow it from greenygal next time I see her... this weekend has just kind of thrown everything upside down for me.

Otoh, being the must-see-tv for a chaos god is not something Harry needs on top of all his other troubles...

[gehayi]

You know what would really be hilarious, in view of that "apocryphal Loki" line?

If Malcolm Dresden had been an avatar or manifestation of Loki--making Harry Loki's son. That would explain Loki's attention...and the chaos that Harry seems to generate as easily as he breathes.

[neotoma]

Is there any evidence that Malcolm Dresden was non-normal? I mean, beside Kincaid's rather ambiguous statement? I got the impression that Malcolm was completely mundane, and the most odd he got was his profession and a taste for bad puns...

[gehayi]

Not much, aside from his appearing to Harry a couple of times and specifically telling his son that "No, this isn't a dream and no, I'm not a ghost." He also managed to pass on some advice and information, both of which proved to be good and which contradicted what Harry himself believed at the time.

Other than that, though, no. I don't know if that's because the man was utterly mundane, because there's been so much more emphasis on Harry's mother and her history, because Malcolm died before Harry was old enough to remember much, or because Harry isn't paying attention. You just never know with this series.

[chaosraven]

I haven't read that book, but I would go with misuse of the word "apocryphal" or poor phrasing. It would be completely ludicrous for Loki to not exist in a setting where Odin et al do.

[neotoma]

I know it's ludicrous, but now I kind of want to write a scene where Harry goes "I didn't think he was real!" and everyone else gives him looks that say "What, are you new?"

... because Harry does tend to have tunnel vision on occasion, and it's often quite hilarious when it's revealed.

[gehayi]

DO IT.