For fans of the Dresden Files...help?

[neotoma]

I've been reading CHANGES to get myself up to canon before tackling a cross-over big bang idea that's been rattling around in my head lately, but I got to Ch. 37 and hit a bit of a wall...

Vamps and Icks are fast, but I'd dueled their like before. Like the apocryphal Loki, my previous opponents had learned that no matter how quick you are on your feet, you aren't faster than thought.

Am I to believe that Loki doesn't exist in the Dresden'verse? Even though Harry crosses paths with a Valkyrie every other book and met Odin in this one? What? Loki's only the most mentioned character in the Eddas -- it's not like he's not integral to rather large parts of the mythology.

Or am I to think that Harry doesn't believe Loki is real... even though Harry has just had a conference with Odin -- who is stocking up weaponry and soldiers for something... like, I don't know, Ragnarok, maybe? And how does Harry know the story of Thor and Loki's journey to Utgard well enough to reference it, but poorly enough that he mixed up who did what challenge (Thjali, Thor's manservant, lost a race against a thought from their host's mind. Loki lost an eating contest against a disguised wildfire)?

Or is Jim Butcher just messing with his readers?

So, I noticed that Harry recognized some of the einherjar as men of Marcone's who were killed taking on the White Court, when Gard took Harry to Oslo. Am I the only one who thinks Gard assignment to work for Marcone's organization is in order to ensure that a certain percentage of his men die in battle (and thus are eligible to go to Valhalla and be soldiers for Odin at Ragnarok)?

I'm pretty sure that Harry hasn't realized it, and would be appalled if that's the case. Marcone probably has, and decided having Ms. Gard's services was worth the likely cost to him in men.

Comments

[melannen]

My answer to that was in the meaning of the word "apocryphal" - in common English usage these days, yeah, it's often used to mean "not true", but if you go back to older/literal meanings (which someone with Dresden's reading history probably has) it means a) hidden teachings or b) the stuff the authority figures reject but that some people think is true anyway.

So I think I just automatically parsed that as Harry saying "the White Council et. al. claim Loki never existed but we all know better than to naively trust that, don't we?"

Alternatively, a) Harry being naive and wrong, or b) Butcher screwing with his readers, which is usually both at once.

The story he's referencing there is pretty widely retold with Loki losing all the contests (or Thor losing all the contests), and not just in recent stuff, isn't it? Who knows what source Harry's working from, but at this point it's probably more than we've got. (Or just Bob.)


...I had kind of assumed Gard was there so that Odin could make sure and get Marcone when he inevitably fell, and his men becoming Einherjar was just a sweetener on the deal. Your version is darker and therefore more interesting, though.

[greenygal]

Am I to believe that Loki doesn't exist in the Dresden'verse?

My best explanation for this would be that Harry means "there's this story about Loki and Thor, but who knows if it's true or not? A lot of stories aren't, and it's not like I was there" as opposed to taking a personal stand on the nonexistence of Loki. Alternately, he's just used to thinking of the Norse gods as either not-real or, again, in the hazy area of "well, who knows?" and his casual thought processes haven't caught up to the fact that he just got definitive proof. I agree that it's a slightly clunky way to do it, but I can't believe that Jim Butcher would deliberately include Odin in a book and establish that Loki doesn't exist without actually stopping to explain how that works. Sloppy wording is far more believable.

As for how Harry got it wrong, that's easy: he read the story once, but it was a while ago, so he doesn't remember all the details and got wrong which challenge was Loki's.

I'm not entirely sure about Marcone, actually; on the ethical level, he seems like the kind of crimelord who might object to employees who served him in good faith being killed by another employee, and on the pragmatic level, Gard's going to want the best and the strongest to take, which does Marcone no good. On the other hand, it is kind of hard to believe that Gard's doing it and Marcone just hasn't noticed.

[gehayi]

First, Harry didn't necessarily get it wrong; I've read a lot of versions of that tale, and sometimes it features Thor, Loki and Loki's servant, while other times the servant is left out of it. If the servant is left out, Loki generally runs the race AND loses the eating contest. It could just be that Harry's more familiar with a servant-less version.

Also, I think that Harry is distinguishing between the real Loki and the stories that people tell about Loki. If Loki is a real being--and since Odin, Valkyries and the einherjar are real, it's probable that he is--the last thing Harry would want is to picture a possible future foe about whom all the stories were true. It's probably easier for him to think, "Okay, Loki is good, but he's not THAT good."

Personally, I suspect that Harry is one of Loki's favorite mortals. The man is a walking catalyst; he upsets everything. He just hasn't realized it yet.

(Please note that I say "mortal" and not "human"; half-demon Jared Kincaid mentioned a few books back that "I'm as human as you are, Dresden." Now, Harry's maternal bloodline is well-documented...but ever since then, I've been wondering about Harry's supposedly orphaned and supposedly perfectly ordinary father.)

[chaosraven]

I haven't read that book, but I would go with misuse of the word "apocryphal" or poor phrasing. It would be completely ludicrous for Loki to not exist in a setting where Odin et al do.