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The Problem of Count Dooku
Count Dooku is a character that causes some problems when contemplating the SW universe.
He's a member of the Republic aristocracy, a Jedi who resigned from the Order, and a Sith. His surface goals are noble -- the Separatist movement had a lot of sense behind it in hindsight, even if the leaders were mostly loathsome and self-interested -- and yet he's working for one of the most calculating and devious of politicians.
But from the movies themselves, it's very hard to tell what his motivations are. He's more of a stock villain than anything else, and that makes for a thin backstory at best.
Personally, I think he was listening to the will of the Force, filtered and distorted through his own emotions. He'd gotten caught up in the Jedi habit of thinking the ends justify the means, and the end he wanted (a renewed Republic?) justified some very nasty means, indeed.
Dooku must have been magnificent once, as he was Yoda's students and Qui-Gon's master, and I doubt that you could deal with either one of them, let alone both, without being something quite amazing yourself. He's still quite impressive when Obi-Wan encounters him in AotC, as he's managed to get all the diverse interests that make up the Separatists following *him*.
The fact that he and Palpatine were running a two-man con on such a massive scale was pretty damned impressive, even if Dooku was foolish enough to believe that Palpatine wouldn't turn on him when it was convenient. I wonder if Dooku thought by causing an external problem, that the Republic would sort itself out and revitalize?
Was he also hoping to shake the Jedi Order up? Destroy the Sith from the inside? He actually asks Obi-Wan to join him to that end in AotC, which suggests that Dooku still thought of himself as not-a-Sith. He tells Obi-Wan the exact truth, that the Republic is under control of Darth Sidious -- neglecting to mention that Sidious is Palpatine -- and yet goes to Palpatine and happily confirms that war has started.
Combine with the implications that Dooku was the one to arrange for the creation of the Clone Army ten years before AotC -- or shortly after TPM if you are keeping your eye on the timeline -- the sense I get out of all this is that Dooku was a rogue agent.
He was *trying* to bring down the Sith, and trying to reform the Republic by force. It's just that his method was to go outside the Jedi Order and the Senate authority and act as a lone wolf.
In the end, he was magnificent and brave and so wrong-headed as to make one weep. His failure was a failure of the Jedi as a whole -- arrogance to the point of horror, self-reliance to the point of foolishness, and callous indifference to suffering to the point of disaster.
He's a member of the Republic aristocracy, a Jedi who resigned from the Order, and a Sith. His surface goals are noble -- the Separatist movement had a lot of sense behind it in hindsight, even if the leaders were mostly loathsome and self-interested -- and yet he's working for one of the most calculating and devious of politicians.
But from the movies themselves, it's very hard to tell what his motivations are. He's more of a stock villain than anything else, and that makes for a thin backstory at best.
Personally, I think he was listening to the will of the Force, filtered and distorted through his own emotions. He'd gotten caught up in the Jedi habit of thinking the ends justify the means, and the end he wanted (a renewed Republic?) justified some very nasty means, indeed.
Dooku must have been magnificent once, as he was Yoda's students and Qui-Gon's master, and I doubt that you could deal with either one of them, let alone both, without being something quite amazing yourself. He's still quite impressive when Obi-Wan encounters him in AotC, as he's managed to get all the diverse interests that make up the Separatists following *him*.
The fact that he and Palpatine were running a two-man con on such a massive scale was pretty damned impressive, even if Dooku was foolish enough to believe that Palpatine wouldn't turn on him when it was convenient. I wonder if Dooku thought by causing an external problem, that the Republic would sort itself out and revitalize?
Was he also hoping to shake the Jedi Order up? Destroy the Sith from the inside? He actually asks Obi-Wan to join him to that end in AotC, which suggests that Dooku still thought of himself as not-a-Sith. He tells Obi-Wan the exact truth, that the Republic is under control of Darth Sidious -- neglecting to mention that Sidious is Palpatine -- and yet goes to Palpatine and happily confirms that war has started.
Combine with the implications that Dooku was the one to arrange for the creation of the Clone Army ten years before AotC -- or shortly after TPM if you are keeping your eye on the timeline -- the sense I get out of all this is that Dooku was a rogue agent.
He was *trying* to bring down the Sith, and trying to reform the Republic by force. It's just that his method was to go outside the Jedi Order and the Senate authority and act as a lone wolf.
In the end, he was magnificent and brave and so wrong-headed as to make one weep. His failure was a failure of the Jedi as a whole -- arrogance to the point of horror, self-reliance to the point of foolishness, and callous indifference to suffering to the point of disaster.
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The Sith master and apprenticeship recalls (for me) somewhat the relationship of Roman Emperor and Head of the Praetorian Guard, as obtained in the later empire, when being Head of the Guard in fact meant, next Emperor as soon as you could get rid of the old one.
In studying "Sith" for the purpose of a possibly Palpatine backstory fic, I think the comparisons with Ancient Rome howl at one.
There's two threads to the "join us" thing.
1. It's a con. You make that appeal to an enemy you wish to destroy - give him the choice, and if he agrees to join, you have his measure and can defeat him. That's what it was with Dooku and Obi-Wan - Dooku was seeking out Obi-Wan's weaknesses, as I see it.
2. It's a test. You make the appeal to an enemy you wish to recruit and his initiation is to take the place of your apprentice. That's Sidious's speciality. His apprentices are not strictly that, because he is never going to surrender the mastership voluntarily. His apprentices are to a greater or lesser extent, merely tools. Maul is sacrified to eliminate the very dangerous Qui-Gon. Dooku is sacrificed at the precise point when he may be a danger of giving away the secret of Darth Sidious, and also at the point when a more powerful tool is ready: Anakin.
Palpatine is actually two people. I believe Sidious is the product of his own lust for power and the outcome of the inevitable journey to the dark side. Palpatine is not some mad psycho (though Sidious may be), he's urbane, cultivated, and able to effortlessly interact with and fool everyone. He's far more socially functional than a psychopath. He can do that because he's playing himself as Palpatine.
Sidious is "stored" inside Palpatine - they are however inter-aware.
In the interests of a possible Palpatine backstory fic, I'm currently tracing the machinations of the senator, and later Chancellor. It's actually politically masterful, like a game of Dejarek.
Palpatine was playing a very long game indeed. That call to create order out of chaos is very seductive politically.
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As for the Old Republic, I think it was doomed, whether or not there was a Palpatine to take power or not. The Republic was a society past its flowering and into its decline. It would have taken a major cultural shift to revitalize it.
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I disagree with the idea that Sidious is 'stored' inside Palpatine. There is no division between Palpatine and Sidious, they are one and the same person. Palpatine is just Sidious being urbane and cultured to present his actions in the best light when he doesn't quite have the political power to take the velvet glove off his iron fist.
"He could destroy us."
Hmm. Palpatine keeps Vader around because he is indeed powerful in the Force, and what Vader is utterly and completely focus on goals givens to him- one of which is to destroy the decadent Jedi, who then cannot ris eup a new rival. With no Jedi around, no rivals, except for Vader....
and then there is Luke, who is the sabot in the works. Palpatine sends Vader to confront Luke; "He could destroy us" is what Palpatine says. Vader see Luke as a mechanism for finally seizing power for himself- until after the confrontation, where it may have stirred his feelings. Palpatine sees his own end unless 1) Luke kills Vader, and becomes his apprentice or 2) Vader kills Luke, and keeps the status quo.
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2. It's a test. You make the appeal to an enemy you wish to recruit and his initiation is to take the place of your apprentice. That's Sidious's speciality.
Right. I wonder if Dooku and Palpatine were once at loggerheads, and then joine up together in the manner you suggested.